User talk:Anton - Revision history

Tobin: Reverted edit of 60.55.58.202, changed back to last version by Tobin

2004-12-20T12:09:03Z

Reverted edit of 60.55.58.202, changed back to last version by Tobin

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:09, 20 December 2004
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	[[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]		[[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]

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	[http://www.8cx.net/book/ 书库]
	[http://www.8cx.net/ds/ 网络电视]
	[http://www.8cx.net/ttdl/ 代理服务器]
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60.55.58.202 at 07:18, 20 December 2004

2004-12-20T07:18:50Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 17:18, 20 December 2004
Line 148:		Line 148:

	[[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]		[[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]

			[http://www.8cx.net 彩信]
			[http://www.8cx.net/book/ 书库]
			[http://www.8cx.net/ds/ 网络电视]
			[http://www.8cx.net/ttdl/ 代理服务器]
			[http://www.8cx.net/pic/ 桌面壁纸]
			[http://www.8cx.net/sh/ 生活百科]

			[http://www.8cx.net/jy.htm 交友]
			[http://www.8cx.net/game.htm 游戏]
			[http://www.8cx.net/dy/ 电影]
			[http://www.8cx.net/bt/ bt]
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Tobin at 00:57, 14 November 2003

2003-11-14T00:57:38Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:57, 14 November 2003
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	Anton		Anton
			----
			Anton,

			Articles on the wiki aren't written for the personal glory of the original contributer, they are written for the entire wiki. If you don't agree with this then then Cunnan, or just about any other public editable wiki for that matter, isn't an appropriate place for your work. Since any of the articles on Cunnan could be re-written at a moments notice it is inappropriate to suggest that any article is the masterwork of a single author. The ability and right of others to alter what you have written (on the wiki) goes far beyond amendment, correction of facts and grammar.

			The comparison to standing in front of a lectern is also faulty, that situation results in responses to the speech not an improvement upon what it being said (the same goes for the written copies).

			How much of an article needs to be changed before we no longer suggest that it is the original author's work and that they get the credit for it? 50%? Major structure? Double the length? Balance added?

			The view I'm taking on this isn't something that I've come up with over a cup of tea and some biscuits its based on the WikiWiki way and Wikipedia policy (if you want to change the way wikis work start there not here, they have a much greater experience base and have gone through all these arguments).

			If your point of view on the issue remains as stated above then Cunnan isn't an appropriate place for you to write. You might like to consider getting your own personal website.

			[[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]

203.31.48.3 at 00:39, 14 November 2003

2003-11-14T00:39:26Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:39, 14 November 2003
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	[[User:Jos\|Jane of Stockton]] 11:18, Nov 14, 2003 (EST)		[[User:Jos\|Jane of Stockton]] 11:18, Nov 14, 2003 (EST)


			Jane,

			Attribution of authors really is a die in a ditch issue for me.

			I do not believe that the 'this isnt a static envirnoment' argument is valid. No work has ever been written in a static environment ; every author is a dwarf, standing on the shoulders of giants, and by doing so providing a platform for others. On a wiki, publishing is faster, but at the end of the day, it is no different to Abelard standing up on a lectern in Paris, making his argument, then writing it out longhand and sending it to other disputants.

			As far as my major contributions, eg Scholasticism, the history of Church and State that is mis-titled Reformation, attribution is not negotiable.

			I wrote it ; I want to be responsible for it ; I want to be remembered for it.

			Amendment, I dont mind. Reworking, go for it. Correction of facts and grammar, please.

			But remember me for what I did.

			Anton

Jos at 00:18, 14 November 2003

2003-11-14T00:18:20Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 10:18, 14 November 2003
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	Anton		Anton

			----

			Anton,

			Just a comment about attributions. You have asked Tobin to stop removing your name from articles. You have stated that you want your name there to prove that you stand by what you wrote. That is a noble and right way when dealing with an article that is to be published in a static environment.

			However, the environment of a wiki is different. It is not static. People can change your work. At that point, it becomes a different writing that what you put your name to originally. Is it fair to you as the original author to have your name on something that is no longer what your orginally intended? Is it fair to the person who made a contribution to have that ignorned by having someone elses name on the article?

			I'm sure you answer will be to say to get everyone to put their name on an article they contribute to, but that really isn't part of the wiki philosphy. It becomes messy and about who has their name on the most articles.

			Wikis are an open format, you have to get used to people changing things, including deleting things. That is just how they work.

			[[User:Jos\|Jane of Stockton]] 11:18, Nov 14, 2003 (EST)

Anton at 11:43, 13 November 2003

2003-11-13T11:43:48Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 21:43, 13 November 2003
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	[[User:Del\|Del]]		[[User:Del\|Del]]

			-------

			Del,

			Whining about corruption in the Church was a favorite habit of just about every writer.

			Heck, I bet I can find letters from Popes complaining about abuses and corruption in the Church.

			But that doesnt mean they want to destroy the Church and re-form it, which was what the Reformation was about.

			Anton

Del at 07:01, 13 November 2003

2003-11-13T07:01:54Z

@@ Line 52: / Line 52: @@
 I also very much like your idea of writing the same article from multiple points of view (though we could do the same thing in one article under different headings) - [[User:Tobin|Tobin]]
 Del,
@@ Line 78: / Line 79: @@
 Anton

203.31.48.3 at 01:15, 11 November 2003

2003-11-11T01:15:56Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 11:15, 11 November 2003
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	I also very much like your idea of writing the same article from multiple points of view (though we could do the same thing in one article under different headings) - [[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]		I also very much like your idea of writing the same article from multiple points of view (though we could do the same thing in one article under different headings) - [[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]


			Del,

			No bloody way in hell for the Decameron being a core document for the Reformation. I see 'The Reformation' as just one more round in the Church/State conflict that started with Otto III marching on Rome and replacing the Pope in the 800s, and continued with Henry IV, Freddie I, Freddie II, Boniface vs the French and so on.

			The Wyclif movement was an early - and almost successful - attempt to decapitate the Church and put it under the complete control of the Crown ; it was the prototype for the State Protestantism adopted by England, Sweden, Denmark etc.

			Erasmus-style critiques of church corruption had been around for a long time ; I'll dig up some medieval examples.

			I'd propose John of Paris' 1302 'On Royal and Papal Power' as a core document, in that it provided the intellectual firepower for the idea of Church as seperate from State. It was written to support French claims against Boniface, in the period before the the Avignon Captivity.

			For me, the Conciliar movement of the 14th C was probably the key - they proposed solving the problem of the 3 Popes by having them all resign, and sorting it out at a Church Council. To paraphrase another quote, this is when people saw Popes could be unmade other than at Rome.

			As to the end of the Reformation, it hasnt quite ended yet, although with Vatican II all of what I see as the Big Issues of the Reform have been resolved (it's notable for those pro-Conciliarists that it was the Council of Trent that reformed multiple benefices, selling indulgences and so on - the rightful core objections of the Reformers).

			By the way, have a look at John of Salisbury's stuff here

			http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/salisbury-poli4.html

			Reads rather 15th C, doesnt it ... and he was in the room when Thomas A'Beckett of Canterbury got whacked.

			In the Metalogicus - his book on how to learn philosophy - he's also citing St Bernard on teaching students rheotric and poetry, and his letters quote Cicero, Ovid, Juvenal, Petronius and every other darn Classical author he can get his hands on (oh yeah, and he also had some Greek).

			Unless you use Humanist to mean 'Scholar with an interest in Classical authors other than Aristotle', you need to adjust the time period :)

			Anton

Tobin at 13:33, 10 November 2003

2003-11-10T13:33:08Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:33, 10 November 2003
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	Ok, points taken. But I am very worried that a large number of articles will soon have: "''personXYZ's'' notes:" added to them and the wiki will degenerate into a set of unchangeable personal snippets and will no longer be a community effort.		Ok, points taken. But I am very worried that a large number of articles will soon have: "''personXYZ's'' notes:" added to them and the wiki will degenerate into a set of unchangeable personal snippets and will no longer be a community effort.

	I understand the importance of accountability. I just feel that the mechanisms the wiki has in place to deal with it are sufficient and we don't need to go around maintaining a second set of edit records (though articles previously published elsewhere should, as you've pointed out, have this fact mentioned) ~~- [[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]~~		I understand the importance of accountability. I just feel that the mechanisms the wiki has in place to deal with it are sufficient and we don't need to go around maintaining a second set of edit records (though articles previously published elsewhere should, as you've pointed out, have this fact mentioned)

			I also very much like your idea of writing the same article from multiple points of view (though we could do the same thing in one article under different headings) - [[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]

Tobin: points taken. my concerns.

2003-11-10T13:31:25Z

points taken. my concerns.

← Older revision		Revision as of 23:31, 10 November 2003
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	[[User:Del\|Del]] 00:25, 11 Nov 2003 (EST)		[[User:Del\|Del]] 00:25, 11 Nov 2003 (EST)

			----
			Ok, points taken. But I am very worried that a large number of articles will soon have: "''personXYZ's'' notes:" added to them and the wiki will degenerate into a set of unchangeable personal snippets and will no longer be a community effort.

			I understand the importance of accountability. I just feel that the mechanisms the wiki has in place to deal with it are sufficient and we don't need to go around maintaining a second set of edit records (though articles previously published elsewhere should, as you've pointed out, have this fact mentioned) - [[User:Tobin\|Tobin]]